Banning Christians

I received an invitation to a Facebook group today, 10,000,000 Pagans strong, a group which defines itself mainly in view of what it hates—Christians.

From its description (BOLD type is used):

"NOW... PLEASE UNDERSTAND: WE ARE A GROUP OF PAGANS, AND WE HAVE TAKEN STEPS TO KEEP ALL CHRISTIANS FROM SPREADING THEIR VIEWPOINTS TO OUR MEMBERS. ANY CHRISTIAN TOPICS ARE DELETED UPON REVIEW. HERE'S OUR VIEWPOINT... THEY HAVE THEIR OWN GROUP...THIS IS OURS!!!"

Right below this they write:

"Stay positive and encouraging on the discussion boards! If the overall tone of the discussion is negative it will be deleted!"

Well, right there I know I'm not welcome, since I'm generally critical of pretty much anything anybody has to say about anything. Some people see that as a beautiful feature of course. But most do not.

But in addition to the revolting positive bias of this group's policy, it's obviously a sham since they direct the most hateful and fearful attitudes towards Christians, to the extent of wanting to blot them and their topicality out entirely.

I neither hate nor fear Christians. I used to be one, long ago, and still find the Bible one of the most interesting and useful books there has ever been. Even the New Testament, which is definitely the weaker work of course, has interesting bits. And as for cultural influence, pretty much everybody in the West is a cultural Christian, whether he wishes to be or not.

With respect to Tarot, if you toss out the Christian bits, you don't have much left, since Tarot began its life as set of Christian symbols, and continues today evoking (and provoking) these symbols even in the allegedly paganesque versions of the cards.

Where, for example, would Thelemites be without that grand and crazy work, Revelation, with its rich symbolism that Aleister Crowley so inventively appropriated?

That said, there are plenty of Christians who practice bigotry of their own, who hate and fear others who are different, and who definitely feel called upon by God to preach against, and sometimes work evil against, the evil they see in the beliefs of others.

But while there may be 10,000,000 pagans, there are over 2,000,000,000 (two billion!) Christians, and they have many different views about things. So, the freaks we see on television, who seem like they would have done well for the Spanish Inquisition (even though many of them, being Protestants, would have been tortured and killed by the Spanish Inquisition), represent one side, not all, nor even a majority of the Christian community.

Finally, Christianity is itself a patchwork of paganism, so if you would claim it has no topicality to pagans, it is an expression of self-hatred, and the low sense of self esteem one encounters in the occult in general.

As Crowley shows, speaking of the idea of power, it only becomes oppressive when it is dying (see Ten of Wands). The Christian church, as a unified movement in the world, has gotten less oppressive, not more so, over the centuries. It has increased its membership to perhaps 1/3 of all humanity. Its message is, at its root, simple and clear and compelling to most people. That doesn't necessarily make it true of course, but it makes it and will continue to make it, extremely popular.

If you seek exclusion from this phenomenon, you validate the exclusivity Christians are alleged to perpetrate against others, and you lose as a consequence. Again, they have the numbers in the extreme. And that will not change if one is so afraid of them they hide out in intolerant enclaves for "pagans".

In all the myriad conflicts of our world, we do better if we engage in dialog, listen, disagree if necessary, but also seek common ground.

It is that, or mutually assured destruction.

(jk)

Comments

Quoth said…
This is a very good point. I came to this entry when looking over the afore mentioned group.

It also touches on something Caiseal Mor said in his blog, that there is so much focus these days on tolerance. The word tolerance implies you are putting up with something you do not accept. We should be focussing on Acceptance, as there is no love without acceptance.

Don't tolerate other people beliefs or views, accept their views as theirs, even if different to your own.

Cheers.
John said…
Hold on. Christianity, itself, IS something that shouldn't be tolerated - at all.

I know some pepole speak of religious freedom. Yes, they are right - in SOME aspects. Yes, we are free to practice our religion as we see fit.

However, it is TOTAL nonsense to allow christians, who so promtly say that they know "the way, the path, and light", so promplty excluding ALL other forms of religion (including the religion of it's origin, judaism) in the garbage.

Sure, we are free to practice our beleifs and religions as we see fit, and yes, we may have freedom of speech - but, I'm pretty sure that it is total NONSENSE to allow people to attack other peoples religion. Using your freedom os speech to attack somebody is not only offensive, rude, and not called for - but, more than that, it is a crime, punishable by law! Yes, you can file law suits against anyone who attacks your religion, without provocation.

In other words, nobody has the right to tell you that "you practice the devil's bidding!" because your are a witch, because you pratice Tarot, or any other supernatural thing. They also cannot say anything provocative to you about sexuality, politics, ethnic origin, sex...

...the constitution of America guarantees freedom of persecution because of religion. And so do most other countries (in my opinion, all the good ones). Get informed about your local law.

Remember, if someone on the internet commits a crime against you, your country has to stand up and represent you, through international laws and treaties. (and, just to make them regret it, sue the pants off of them, and make them an example of poverty in their church - that'll teach them!)

Nobody can make you less of what you are because of your religion, your beleifs (as long as you don't commit a crime), or anything else.

But, the bible says christians should stand up against those who aren't. To fight them (although, it usually means with words, rather than arms and weapons - mainly because the bible was written when christians were a minority). Christians also don't follow the law, when it comes to their beleifs. If God sent them to some random insanity in public, they would do it. And, yes, in the Roman Empire, it was a crime to be christian. And, you can bet they did not follow that law!

In any case, a banning on christians should happen, for those who follow the extreme of the bible of attacking people with other beleifs, for expressing their beleifs to people who don't want to hear what they have to say (and, personally, nobody can make you hear what you want you don't want to, unless you are offered the right to do the same as you see fit).

Christians many times seem to forget that christian salvation is not something that everybody wants. Proof? OK, how about the other two thirds of the world who aren't christians. If they aren't christians yet, it's probably because they already have something that fills their lives, and probably doesn't force people to live repressing themselves through "sins" and other such things.

I support the banning on christianity, for christians who follow the bible to the extremes that is declared as commandments.

Violation of others personal rights is something that, I know this is a blasfemy, but even God himself doesn't have the right to do. A good and fair God just isn't like that... trust a dictionary to look up those words, if you feel like it.

I just hope that this blog doesn't keep on proclaming it's message of tolerance to non-christians, and keeps on letting the christians violate others rights that are guaranteed by law. And, you can bet that anyone who says anything against this is going against many laws. And, those who violate others rights, inspite of knowing that it is against the law, have sided with criminal practice, and should be put in a jail and fined.

I'm sure the groups that defend equal rights, freedom of speech (the ones that are not extremists), and governments will agree with what I have said.

As is, nothing else to add.


John Reaver (not real name)
jk said…
John, you are that common combination of gross ignorance and flagrant stupidity the Bible tells us should either be ignored completely, because it is in fact part of a pack of wild dogs, or which should be punched in the mouth (with verbal rebuke anyway).

Most people who know my work, understand I tend toward the latter remedy for people in your condition.

Further, I would offer some advice before we start here, which is that, given that you clearly do not understand anything you're talking about here, there is no need, certainly no demand from me or anyone else, that you write ever again at length about these subjects.

Well, let's get to it.

"Sure, we are free to practice our beleifs and religions as we see fit, and yes, we may have freedom of speech - but, I'm pretty sure that it is total NONSENSE to allow people to attack other peoples religion."

Then you're admitting what you have written is total nonsense. Good point.

But more than this, it is apparent you only believe in "freedom" you understand or agree with, and then hypocritically. The freedom to attack the ideas of others is a foundational freedom in the United States and in the West in general, and that includes the freedom to attack the religious ideas of other people.

If I say for example pagans and witches are Satan-worshipping scumbags, and evil from the roots up, what law would you use to sue me? That speech is clearly protected in the United States, and in most countries protecting freedom of speech and religion.

What is nonsense is to claim that we are both free but prohibited by numerous laws from exercising that freedom.

"In other words, nobody has the right to tell you that "you practice the devil's bidding!" because your are a witch, because you pratice Tarot, or any other supernatural thing."

Sure they do. That's why they keep doing it, instead of ending up in some stupid pagan-run Gitmo. What you are talking about is a world where people are prohibited from hurting other people's feelings, or saying anything that might offend somebody.

In such a world, you certainly wouldn't last very long, because your every line of ignorant blather is pretty offensive.

"...the constitution of America guarantees freedom of persecution because of religion."

No, it doesn't. It guarantees that the state will not attempt to impose a religion upon the people. It asserts in other words the freedom to choose a religion, or no religion. However, the First Amendment also guarantees the freedom of the people to speak their minds, even about religion, and even to the extent of being thought offensive or persecuting another's beliefs.

"Nobody can make you less of what you are because of your religion"

It may be the case you've already made less of what you are, or precisely what you are, because of your religion, or other forms of idiocy.

"And, yes, in the Roman Empire, it was a crime to be christian. And, you can bet they did not follow that law!"

Nor should they have, if there were any such laws. But generally Christianity was legal, as were most competing religions under the Romans. And Christianity won that battle and became the state religion of the Empire.

"I support the banning on christianity"

What you support is the proliferation of imbecility.

"I just hope that this blog doesn't keep on proclaming it's message of tolerance to non-christians"

The real question is why should anyone tolerate your ass-braying.

I don't think they have to, at least not to the extent of protecting your feelings from rebuke.

Now, I wrote a great deal more than was really necessary here, because I thought perhaps young and impressionable readers might wish to understand a basis for my more succinct evaluation of your merit as a thinker:

Shut the fuck up, moron.

(jk)
koliyn said…
....Firstly....

Hold on. Christianity, itself, IS something that shouldn't be tolerated - at all.

... and secondly....

"Sure, we are free to practice our beleifs and religions as we see fit,"

... The death Punchline is....

we may have freedom of speech - but, I'm pretty sure that it is total NONSENSE to allow people to attack other peoples religion."

WOW... you are some mean Prophet John.

John...you really need to learn how to read and get some unbiased information about these themes. Then maybe you can actually form a reasonable point of view on this mate.
I can't believe i read those two sentences from the same person in the same posting.